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where do you go and die actor Tim

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Robbins got a glimpse in this cult

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classic Jacob's Ladder

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and I guess that's how it is with the

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afterlife

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I mean we know it's probably gonna call

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what it doesn't so we keep asking the

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questions we keep looking for the

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answers and once in a while we come

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across some people who really seem to

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know there are no Devils in hell there

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are just human beings who have evil

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thoughts and habits and then as Richard

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mentioned there are some kind of of

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thought forms which are formed by people

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producing those evil and and murderers

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and that kind of thoughts and they have

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so much power that they exist there for

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some time and if a person has kind of

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affinity harboring those those negative

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feelings and thoughts throughout their

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life or at least to some extent then it

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might be that that this is somehow

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attracting to these these lower levels

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of afterlife and I find it interesting

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that negative near-death experiences

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they tend to reveal that these stages

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are felt by people who who go briefly to

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the other side so to speak that's

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today's guest dr. ante seven onion who's

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written a new book about the finished

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mystic peak Arvest who back in the 1890s

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had a series of amazing mystical

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experiences that reveal to him what

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really happens after we die

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it's a very interesting book in

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particular because it has so much

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overlap with the modern-day near-death

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experience research that we've focused

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so much upon and yet at the same time it

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raises some of the same questions that

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we always come back to regarding science

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and materialism and our need to try and

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know and understand this topic from

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reason and at the same time our

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appreciation for the fact that we know

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deep down that reason can't really get

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us there in this interview we're also

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joined by the very excellent biblical

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scholar in spiritual scholar Richard

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Smalley

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who wrote the introduction for this book

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so it was great having him

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on as well before we get started with

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the interviewed let me just mention that

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auntie has informed me that the book is

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available actually right now as a free

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ebook it's an excellent book I've read

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it it's nicely formatted you it's not

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like a cheap freebie throw away kind of

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thing well researched again with an

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excellent introduction by Richard

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Smalley it's just a great book that's

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available for free so it's kind of a

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cool thing and I'll of course have the

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links to that in the show notes this was

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a fun interview for me we talked about

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all sorts of topics all the way from the

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idiosyncratic nature of these mystical

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experiences and how much are we to trust

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my big toe kind of simulation Theory

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kind of things versus a total full-blown

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spiritual or even Christian mystical

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experience we talked about backdoor

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materialism and medicine in particular

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and whether proposed head transplant

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that's supposed to happen in 2018 will

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reveal anything more about how we might

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understand consciousness and then we

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even venture off into biblical

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scholarship and biblical studies just a

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little bit because when you have a

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chance to talk to Richard smoly

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you can't miss the opportunity to talk

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about that stuff as well so don't let

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this creepy music and creepy

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introduction freak you out too much it's

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really kind of an upbeat and fun

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interview I hope you enjoy it and I hope

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you stick around for this episode of

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skeptic Oh

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[Music]

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today we welcome two guests to skeptic

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Oh dr. aunty Sivan yin he joins us as

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someone who's contacted me because he's

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listened to skeptic oh and then I came

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to find that he was writing a very

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interesting book right up our alley the

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book is titled from death to rebirth and

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it's about the Finnish mystic pika

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Arvest and now before I go further how

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do we really say that name

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Abed of us good enough okay good a

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Finnish mystic a Christian mystic back

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in the late 1890s so we're gonna talk

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about that book we're also going to talk

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more in general about mysticism and in

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particular Christian mysticism and we're

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also joined by the very excellent

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spiritual scholar that many of you will

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be aware of that is Richard smoly his

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work I've referenced several times on

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this show because it's so excellent so

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extraordinary and many many people

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regard it very highly Richard is the

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author of several books one that you may

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be aware of is his most recent how God

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became God so Richard thank you for

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joining us as well thank you very much

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Alex it's a pleasure to be here so like

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I was explaining anti Richard you know I

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thought what we would do is talk about

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this book but really kind of talk around

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it and talk about some of the

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interesting topics that I think it it

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connects to we have the near-death

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experience science that the show has

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spent a lot of times covering and this

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book connects to that because here we

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have this guy back in the 1890s nice and

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hey I went through this very tough

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spiritual transformative experience but

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at the end I know all about what happens

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in the after death world and let me tell

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you about it we also have it connecting

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just with mysticism in general with

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theosophy with a lot of topics that I

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think

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listeners might find interesting where I

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thought we might start though is just

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with this basic idea and anti you can

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you tackle this or Richard I know this

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is really in your swing zone as well you

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know

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theosophy is something that I think

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throws people for a loop I know it

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throws me for a loop I think there's a

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strong historical connection we have to

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the word that I don't think fits with

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the way people use it and think about it

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today so how do we want to just pull

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that apart to begin with as a

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definitional kind of foundational thing

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well I can start

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theosophy means divine wisdom in its

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Greek roots it has two meanings one of

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which is generic and that smalti'

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theosophy is shall we say a kind of

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blueprint of the structure of the divine

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works that I've been called Theosophical

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in this sense include the Zohar the

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Kabbalistic work from the medieval

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Europe and the works of Jakob lerma the

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17th century German mystic now theosophy

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in a more restricted sense refers to the

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ideas propagated by HP Blavatsky in the

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late 19th century and incorporated in

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the Theosophical society so that is

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theosophy with a capital T to put it in

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an even broader context there is

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something called variously the ancient

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wisdom the esoteric tradition the

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perennial philosophy this is universal

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all versions of it are not identical or

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not overt over to all versions of it are

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not identical that is actually correct

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but overall the similarities are greater

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than the differences

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theosophy in the capital T sense happens

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to be a formulation

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of this particular ancient wisdom in the

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language and spirit of the late 19th

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century and spit and spoke very much the

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needs of its time and as a movement it

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brought forth a lot of things including

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the new age as we know it it opened the

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door for Eastern religions to come into

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the West among other things and that's

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where it gets tricky for me and Auntie

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maybe you want to pick up here and talk

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about what the Asif II meant to pika

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and in particular one of the things I

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found interesting is he's struggling

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with some very real kind of political

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struggles that you know we can probably

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understand in the context of today's

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kind of religious battles or new

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religious movements that get started and

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so all of a sudden we take what Richard

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was just saying which sounds great and

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this there's this perennial wisdom and

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there's all this stuff and then we hear

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about these guys fighting and the big

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breakups and all that stuff which I

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think it's also on the back of our mind

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- so maybe switch gears for a minute and

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say what theosophy felt like to PE back

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in the 1890s from what we can tell from

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what he's written yes so I think that he

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was at about eighteen years old when he

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encountered the first Theosophical book

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and it really changed his life because

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if he was looking for truth from the

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very early on and and he wanted to know

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if there is knowledge about what is the

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meaning of life and how should we live

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our lives he wasn't that interested in

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the afterlife or what happens after we

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die

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is there even life after death he was

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interested in how to solve problems

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between human beings in a humane way and

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then he found theosophy it was in its

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book and he really felt that now he

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found something important and later on

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because practically everything was

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Christian at the time he was

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raised in Christian culture as well I

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don't know how much that has an impact

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on it but he felt that that a

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Christianity in its esoteric meaning not

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in a religious or a church meaning it

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had a lot to offer for him because he

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found some consolation from some words

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in the Bible which which made him

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believe that there is truth and he can

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personally find it and he found that

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these ideas about ethics of Christianity

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from Leo Tolstoy the great author

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Russian author who really changed his

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life in a different for different

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directs and after finding these kind of

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Commandments Jesus His commandments that

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that they eventually left let him let

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him into transformation experience in

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which he felt that he cut his [\h__\h] at a

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contact with his I would put it higher

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self and he felt that in that experience

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it was a lot experienced which actually

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resembles quite a lot of what NDE people

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are telling us and he felt that these

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commandments which Tolstoy had revealed

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from the New Testament they were not

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invented by Jesus or any God they were

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imprinted in the invisible cosmos in

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itself there were laws of of life itself

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so in a way that that was the start of

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his real spiritual teaching and he's

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both in Finnish theosophy excellent and

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I think even if we were to stop and

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pause right there for a second there's

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already some really interesting stuff to

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pull apart and I turn to you Richard and

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say how are we to understand the mystic

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in particular in our in our modern day

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culture I mean I think this is right up

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your alley in terms of some of the books

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that you've written and trying to

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understand what we call spirituality now

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which encompasses this mystical kind of

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experience but then also how are we to

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understand the Christian mystic in

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particular and anti just you know kind

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of

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past that point but I think it's a very

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00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:42,170
interesting one is that he was immersed

277
00:13:46,020 --> 00:13:44,480
in a Christian culture you almost get

278
00:13:49,420 --> 00:13:46,030
the sense from reading him that he

279
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:49,430
really couldn't even consider anything

280
00:13:54,970 --> 00:13:50,690
outside of that

281
00:13:57,700 --> 00:13:54,980
so his mysticism is decidedly Christian

282
00:14:01,450 --> 00:13:57,710
at the same time I think as anti is

283
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:01,460
suggesting it was broader than maybe

284
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:05,090
what most people would associate with

285
00:14:12,070 --> 00:14:08,210
kind of a strict or fundamentalist kind

286
00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:12,080
of Christian experience that people as

287
00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:14,690
they understand it today do you get what

288
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:16,160
I'm saying can you maybe help me out

289
00:14:21,340 --> 00:14:18,770
there pull that apart for me yeah well

290
00:14:24,990 --> 00:14:21,350
the first question is how do we deal

291
00:14:29,260 --> 00:14:25,000
with mystical experience or mysticism in

292
00:14:32,620 --> 00:14:29,270
life today I'll give you a one-word

293
00:14:35,770 --> 00:14:32,630
answer which is phenomenologically that

294
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:35,780
is to say if someone says they had a

295
00:14:42,190 --> 00:14:39,530
given experience it's usually a good

296
00:14:46,210 --> 00:14:42,200
idea to believe that they had this

297
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:46,220
experience there are frauds and you know

298
00:14:52,810 --> 00:14:48,800
so on but a lot of people do actually

299
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:52,820
have mystical experience and that has to

300
00:14:58,450 --> 00:14:55,330
be taken at face value that cannot be

301
00:15:00,850 --> 00:14:58,460
summarily dismissed as just illusion

302
00:15:03,490 --> 00:15:00,860
just imagination that sort of thing

303
00:15:06,610 --> 00:15:03,500
because yeah well frankly your whole

304
00:15:08,590 --> 00:15:06,620
cognition is illusion and imagination so

305
00:15:10,660 --> 00:15:08,600
that doesn't help too much so I think it

306
00:15:11,650 --> 00:15:10,670
has to be taken phenomenologically with

307
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:11,660
an open mind

308
00:15:17,650 --> 00:15:14,930
that is both open to criticism and open

309
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:17,660
to acceptance which in this day is very

310
00:15:23,079 --> 00:15:20,480
hard to do because it's always this or

311
00:15:26,050 --> 00:15:23,089
that the certain level of the mind that

312
00:15:27,579 --> 00:15:26,060
only can count up to two as you Spence

313
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:27,589
ki could say you know us and then

314
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:30,170
Democrats and Republicans liberals and

315
00:15:35,829 --> 00:15:33,410
conservatives bla bla bla you have to

316
00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:35,839
get past that to understand mystical

317
00:15:40,540 --> 00:15:38,240
experience now the second half had to do

318
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:40,550
with Christianity and I will say this I

319
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:43,130
did say previously that there was this

320
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:46,850
universal tradition that appears over

321
00:15:52,739 --> 00:15:48,850
and over and over again in

322
00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:52,749
any number of times and places and it

323
00:15:56,159 --> 00:15:54,220
has been expressed in different

324
00:16:01,049 --> 00:15:56,169
languages

325
00:16:04,289 --> 00:16:01,059
I mean spiritual language is not verbal

326
00:16:08,669 --> 00:16:04,299
languages Christianity is one of these

327
00:16:10,650 --> 00:16:08,679
um it's not the only one and I would not

328
00:16:14,129 --> 00:16:10,660
even argue that it is the best or

329
00:16:16,909 --> 00:16:14,139
privileged over all the others for us

330
00:16:23,879 --> 00:16:21,749
this is the Christian shall we say

331
00:16:26,369 --> 00:16:23,889
operating system is installed in our

332
00:16:28,349 --> 00:16:26,379
brains if you don't believe in God it's

333
00:16:32,189 --> 00:16:28,359
the Christian God you know believe in in

334
00:16:35,639 --> 00:16:32,199
short so we have to face it and deal

335
00:16:38,069 --> 00:16:35,649
with it what I suggesting and what I

336
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:38,079
suggested particularly in my book inter

337
00:16:45,059 --> 00:16:42,160
Christianity is that let's at least

338
00:16:47,819 --> 00:16:45,069
understand this ancient wisdom using the

339
00:16:51,259 --> 00:16:47,829
language of Christianity because hey it

340
00:16:53,729 --> 00:16:51,269
makes it easier to understand and be

341
00:16:57,659 --> 00:16:53,739
reconcile ourselves to many of the

342
00:16:59,340 --> 00:16:57,669
problems we have with Christianity the

343
00:17:04,019 --> 00:16:59,350
vast majority of which are entirely

344
00:17:07,309 --> 00:17:04,029
justified can add a little bit above for

345
00:17:11,460 --> 00:17:07,319
the excellent words that we just spoke

346
00:17:13,409 --> 00:17:11,470
about peace case he was early on well

347
00:17:15,210 --> 00:17:13,419
worth with languages he was about five

348
00:17:17,579 --> 00:17:15,220
or six years old when he's learned to

349
00:17:19,439 --> 00:17:17,589
read friends before he learned read his

350
00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:19,449
own native language fruit was sweet ease

351
00:17:25,049 --> 00:17:22,720
and he knew something like ten languages

352
00:17:27,539 --> 00:17:25,059
or so he studied Sanskrit at university

353
00:17:29,580 --> 00:17:27,549
so who could read original sources so he

354
00:17:31,470 --> 00:17:29,590
was very enthusiastic about reading the

355
00:17:35,850 --> 00:17:31,480
Eastern religions as well and he really

356
00:17:38,850 --> 00:17:35,860
really highly admired and and even loved

357
00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:38,860
great religions butta and all the great

358
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:41,049
teachings of Yogi's and all that

359
00:17:45,810 --> 00:17:43,210
so he wasn't exclusively Christian at

360
00:17:48,749 --> 00:17:45,820
all and the main point here is to make

361
00:17:52,019 --> 00:17:48,759
to make a difference between Christ or

362
00:17:54,210 --> 00:17:52,029
Christ consciousness and Jesus Jesus was

363
00:17:57,269 --> 00:17:54,220
a man who was fully immersed in that

364
00:17:59,909 --> 00:17:57,279
Christ consciousness in his life but

365
00:18:02,730 --> 00:17:59,919
Christ consciousness is not for only one

366
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:02,740
person it's shared by all leave

367
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:06,400
beings basically and you might say God

368
00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:09,130
or whatever language you prefer all you

369
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:11,380
Buddhist minds say that it's the Buddha

370
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:15,130
nature you are attached to or aspiring

371
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:18,730
to reach or whatever so Christ in this

372
00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:21,730
sense really trance can screw ste anity

373
00:18:26,850 --> 00:18:24,070
and it's that one might say even that

374
00:18:29,790 --> 00:18:26,860
it's this consciousness which is search

375
00:18:31,290 --> 00:18:29,800
for in all mystic traditions in in one

376
00:18:33,299 --> 00:18:31,300
respect I don't know if Richard agrees

377
00:18:35,850 --> 00:18:33,309
with this but that's my interpretation

378
00:18:38,250 --> 00:18:35,860
of this let's say that's awesome I mean

379
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:38,260
that is to me I've been saying that for

380
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:41,490
a long time in the show but it's also

381
00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:44,410
you know rather than an endpoint or a

382
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:47,520
pushback point or something to kind of

383
00:18:53,370 --> 00:18:51,090
rally our arms about against the

384
00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:53,380
materialistic atheistic kind of pushback

385
00:18:59,160 --> 00:18:56,110
that we get I don't see it as another

386
00:19:03,330 --> 00:18:59,170
direction because this materialistic

387
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:03,340
atheism I think is is waning is really

388
00:19:09,540 --> 00:19:06,730
been for the most part supplanted by

389
00:19:12,750 --> 00:19:09,550
people who've really looked at it and

390
00:19:15,180 --> 00:19:12,760
examined it I say it's a jumping-off

391
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:15,190
point it's the starting point for what

392
00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:19,090
we might consider is next and and as

393
00:19:24,690 --> 00:19:22,000
part of that I guess I jump into again

394
00:19:27,990 --> 00:19:24,700
talking about PE and I throw out a word

395
00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:28,000
here idiosyncratic because that's the

396
00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:31,230
word that keeps coming back to me again

397
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:34,510
let me if I can tell you guys a story

398
00:19:39,990 --> 00:19:37,170
digress a little bit of skeptical story

399
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:40,000
this was years ago a years ago being

400
00:19:46,380 --> 00:19:43,440
probably six seven years ago I was

401
00:19:48,810 --> 00:19:46,390
embattled in this kind of ongoing debate

402
00:19:53,820 --> 00:19:48,820
with a group of sceptics that produce a

403
00:19:56,370 --> 00:19:53,830
very popular podcast show and the guy is

404
00:19:58,980 --> 00:19:56,380
from Yale his name is dr. Steven novella

405
00:20:01,440 --> 00:19:58,990
and he's quite quite well-known quite

406
00:20:04,110 --> 00:20:01,450
prominent in both the scientific and in

407
00:20:06,299 --> 00:20:04,120
this atheistic community and the nature

408
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:06,309
of this debate which turned into a

409
00:20:11,549 --> 00:20:09,730
demonstration was on mediumship and I

410
00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:11,559
said well this is just it's been proven

411
00:20:16,740 --> 00:20:13,510
in the lab you know over and over again

412
00:20:19,610 --> 00:20:16,750
and it's the reality for men

413
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:19,620
people who've had these encounters with

414
00:20:23,910 --> 00:20:22,000
there's no better way to say it

415
00:20:26,010 --> 00:20:23,920
deceased people who are deceased

416
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:26,020
consciousness that is beyond the

417
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:29,770
physical form so I contacted a woman and

418
00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:33,010
her name is Marilyn Hughes and Meryl has

419
00:20:36,510 --> 00:20:35,200
a very interesting woman I talked to and

420
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:36,520
she goes you know I don't really do

421
00:20:42,060 --> 00:20:38,710
mediumship readings she goes what I do

422
00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:42,070
is out-of-body travel now this is right

423
00:20:47,090 --> 00:20:44,320
along the lines of PE and that's why I

424
00:20:50,970 --> 00:20:47,100
bring it up Marilyn is a devout Catholic

425
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:50,980
but she has some very for a lot of

426
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:53,050
Catholics she has a lot of ideas that

427
00:20:59,010 --> 00:20:56,050
maybe wouldn't jive with their Catholic

428
00:21:01,410 --> 00:20:59,020
upbringing but the importance of the

429
00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:01,420
story for me is we actually did a

430
00:21:08,820 --> 00:21:06,160
demonstration where I contacted had a

431
00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:08,830
volunteer of a woman who had tragically

432
00:21:14,550 --> 00:21:12,280
lost her teenaged daughter to suicide

433
00:21:15,210 --> 00:21:14,560
and Marilyn said well let me see what I

434
00:21:17,820 --> 00:21:15,220
can do

435
00:21:23,180 --> 00:21:17,830
and Marilyn then went and according to

436
00:21:27,090 --> 00:21:23,190
her ventured into the after death State

437
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:27,100
found her daughter and brought back a

438
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:30,000
bunch of information that was one

439
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:34,450
confirming of the fact that she for lack

440
00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:36,400
of a better term but lack of a better

441
00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:38,350
word had traveled to these other

442
00:21:42,150 --> 00:21:40,480
dimensions she brought back this

443
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:42,160
information that I think to any

444
00:21:46,430 --> 00:21:43,930
reasonable person who was listening to

445
00:21:49,290 --> 00:21:46,440
the show would say gee there's no way

446
00:21:52,740 --> 00:21:49,300
someone could know that stuff but more

447
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:52,750
importantly it seemed to be extremely

448
00:22:00,570 --> 00:21:56,650
healing and meaningful to the mother who

449
00:22:02,970 --> 00:22:00,580
had lost this daughter now the reason

450
00:22:06,090 --> 00:22:02,980
that I say that whole story is because

451
00:22:11,310 --> 00:22:06,100
it does kind of have this intersection

452
00:22:14,510 --> 00:22:11,320
of science spirituality mysticism that

453
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:14,520
says hey here's someone who's having a

454
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:17,050
mystical experience this Autobody

455
00:22:21,780 --> 00:22:19,210
experience which if you push it is

456
00:22:24,510 --> 00:22:21,790
extremely idiosyncratic I mean there's a

457
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:24,520
lot of details to her experience that

458
00:22:30,210 --> 00:22:27,010
would be in conflict or would appear to

459
00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:30,220
be in conflict with what PE is saying

460
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:32,710
or with what Tom Campbell is saying if

461
00:22:36,539 --> 00:22:34,480
anyone knows Tom Campbell from the

462
00:22:39,539 --> 00:22:36,549
Monroe Institute author of my big toe

463
00:22:41,399 --> 00:22:39,549
who has a very simulation has also

464
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:41,409
traveled to these other realms but has a

465
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:45,730
very techno simulation kind of view of

466
00:22:51,690 --> 00:22:48,970
it again idiosyncratic if we jump over

467
00:22:55,289 --> 00:22:51,700
to the near-death experience accounts

468
00:22:57,149 --> 00:22:55,299
again extremely idiosyncratic one

469
00:23:01,200 --> 00:22:57,159
person's reporting one thing one

470
00:23:03,539 --> 00:23:01,210
person's reporting another so I've laid

471
00:23:08,759 --> 00:23:03,549
a lot on the table there but maybe we

472
00:23:11,669 --> 00:23:08,769
can approach this idea of as we put our

473
00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:11,679
arms around this what are we to make of

474
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:14,950
what seems to be the differences of

475
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:17,200
these very real as you pointed out

476
00:23:20,249 --> 00:23:18,610
Richard you know we can't just blow past

477
00:23:22,499 --> 00:23:20,259
them and say well right it doesn't

478
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:22,509
matter because they're all illusion

479
00:23:26,940 --> 00:23:24,730
anyway well there seems to be some

480
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:26,950
reality to them but there seems to be

481
00:23:32,490 --> 00:23:30,240
some differences almost bordering on

482
00:23:35,999 --> 00:23:32,500
contradictions to them and I'd like you

483
00:23:39,509 --> 00:23:36,009
both maybe to talk about that well what

484
00:23:43,289 --> 00:23:39,519
I would say is this let's say you don't

485
00:23:44,580 --> 00:23:43,299
believe in the existence of Africa you

486
00:23:47,490 --> 00:23:44,590
just don't believe in the existence of

487
00:23:50,159 --> 00:23:47,500
it you want proof so there are all these

488
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:50,169
descriptions of Africa ranging from the

489
00:23:57,289 --> 00:23:53,200
Sahara to the pyramids to the source of

490
00:23:59,789 --> 00:23:57,299
the Nile to the Connaught South Africa

491
00:24:04,879 --> 00:23:59,799
and all of these things seem very

492
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:04,889
idiosyncratic they all seem so different

493
00:24:08,999 --> 00:24:07,330
how could they be true how could all of

494
00:24:12,570 --> 00:24:09,009
these descriptions be true they're all

495
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:12,580
talking about Africa all we can really

496
00:24:16,619 --> 00:24:14,799
conclude is that these people who are

497
00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:16,629
talking about Africa are just making it

498
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:18,340
up and all they're in their imaginations

499
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:22,690
or you know it's an illusion my point is

500
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:25,330
that if the afterlife if it exists if

501
00:24:30,060 --> 00:24:28,450
these other realms exist we have every

502
00:24:33,659 --> 00:24:30,070
reason to believe that they are at least

503
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:33,669
is multi-varied and disparate in nature

504
00:24:40,399 --> 00:24:37,330
as the perfectly earthly continent of

505
00:24:43,260 --> 00:24:40,409
Africa so you can make a lot of

506
00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:43,270
idiosyncrasies but I think

507
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:45,910
it would be foolish to expect every last

508
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:49,210
report to be the same right but hold on

509
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:51,250
Oh mommy dinner check because that's all

510
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:52,930
well and good but if one person comes

511
00:24:57,900 --> 00:24:55,090
back and says the Nile runs north and

512
00:25:00,450 --> 00:24:57,910
the other person says the the Nile runs

513
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:00,460
south I mean we have something there

514
00:25:03,540 --> 00:25:01,930
that we can't just say well wow isn't

515
00:25:05,820 --> 00:25:03,550
that interesting everybody kind of sees

516
00:25:08,580 --> 00:25:05,830
the world differently it's like no

517
00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:08,590
there's there's no way to really resolve

518
00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:12,400
that may I say something here yes so I

519
00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:14,950
really like that we just analogy it

520
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:17,470
seems to be appropriate but first let me

521
00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:20,290
make a point about science different

522
00:25:23,910 --> 00:25:21,910
people have different a little bit

523
00:25:26,430 --> 00:25:23,920
different experiences that all people

524
00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:26,440
who go through the NDA do not have the

525
00:25:31,020 --> 00:25:28,960
same faces they have partial faces and

526
00:25:33,210 --> 00:25:31,030
they have different types of experiences

527
00:25:36,330 --> 00:25:33,220
that's where we need science when we

528
00:25:39,150 --> 00:25:36,340
gather a long database a large database

529
00:25:42,420 --> 00:25:39,160
and they will if you use strict

530
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:42,430
scientific rigorous designs like pin

531
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:45,130
Marlo no study and some others are which

532
00:25:51,330 --> 00:25:47,710
are the best we can have in in medicine

533
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:51,340
for instance and then we know what is

534
00:25:57,150 --> 00:25:54,490
the big picture in these cases and then

535
00:25:59,100 --> 00:25:57,160
we can discern different faces and then

536
00:26:01,710 --> 00:25:59,110
we can start counting how many reaches

537
00:26:03,690 --> 00:26:01,720
different faces and so forth you are

538
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:03,700
well versed with this but my point is

539
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:05,410
that you can't really know if you just

540
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:07,690
listen to one person or ten persons you

541
00:26:12,420 --> 00:26:10,510
need to have a rigorous scientific study

542
00:26:14,670 --> 00:26:12,430
and many of them and when you have many

543
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:14,680
of them then you have a scientific map

544
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:17,410
that's how I think scientific method

545
00:26:20,310 --> 00:26:18,130
works

546
00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:20,320
not one single study but many studies

547
00:26:26,370 --> 00:26:23,260
supporting each other eventually then we

548
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:26,380
know something about it and that's how

549
00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:28,690
we know despite of differences between

550
00:26:34,110 --> 00:26:30,790
individuals that's how we know the big

551
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:34,120
picture what's going on and what is

552
00:26:38,490 --> 00:26:36,850
interesting to me is that when I've been

553
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:38,500
interested in various accounts of

554
00:26:43,620 --> 00:26:40,410
afterlife for many many years

555
00:26:46,380 --> 00:26:43,630
spiritualistic and Theosophical and many

556
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:46,390
others and kind of looking at what they

557
00:26:53,130 --> 00:26:49,210
say about it and well now I'm speaking

558
00:26:56,700 --> 00:26:53,140
for the book when I compare this what PE

559
00:26:58,769 --> 00:26:56,710
had to say about this afterlife stage is

560
00:27:01,049 --> 00:26:58,779
early stages especially and when I

561
00:27:03,149 --> 00:27:01,059
compare what this big picture emerging

562
00:27:05,070 --> 00:27:03,159
from the indeed in from the NDE study

563
00:27:07,310 --> 00:27:05,080
tells they seem to match almost

564
00:27:10,590 --> 00:27:07,320
perfectly not well not perfectly but

565
00:27:12,659 --> 00:27:10,600
extremely well might say there are minor

566
00:27:15,330 --> 00:27:12,669
differences but if you'll take a look at

567
00:27:17,820 --> 00:27:15,340
the leaving the body looking at their

568
00:27:19,769 --> 00:27:17,830
surroundings going to light meeting the

569
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:19,779
relatives and deceased and perhaps some

570
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:22,210
holy being and respect and then seeing

571
00:27:27,659 --> 00:27:25,570
your life review it's all there there

572
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:27,669
might be some differences when the life

573
00:27:32,130 --> 00:27:30,610
review for instance takes place in in in

574
00:27:34,889 --> 00:27:32,140
Theosophical accounts and in Everest

575
00:27:37,740 --> 00:27:34,899
view it takes place at least shortly

576
00:27:39,779 --> 00:27:37,750
after you leave your body in in many

577
00:27:41,490 --> 00:27:39,789
indie cases it takes place in the light

578
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:41,500
but in some cases it does take place

579
00:27:45,779 --> 00:27:43,450
when you leave the body so that kind of

580
00:27:47,730 --> 00:27:45,789
differences might be there but what is

581
00:27:50,430 --> 00:27:47,740
interesting is that it P is not the only

582
00:27:52,889 --> 00:27:50,440
one to tell about these phases so you

583
00:27:55,769 --> 00:27:52,899
really can't just have a couple of cases

584
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:55,779
and then kind of try to guess what's

585
00:27:59,399 --> 00:27:57,490
going on but when you have the

586
00:28:01,019 --> 00:27:59,409
scientific studies which are reliable

587
00:28:03,779 --> 00:28:01,029
enough and then you take a look at this

588
00:28:05,789 --> 00:28:03,789
esoteric o or cult people who are saying

589
00:28:08,010 --> 00:28:05,799
and then you compare them you'll find

590
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:08,020
something which is amazingly good match

591
00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:10,450
I'd say Richard would you like to add

592
00:28:16,139 --> 00:28:13,510
anything there are certainly differences

593
00:28:20,430 --> 00:28:16,149
in state but I'd like to know what

594
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:20,440
science is science is or ideally some

595
00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:22,690
kind of discipline that we're told

596
00:28:30,330 --> 00:28:27,360
considers all the relevant data but

597
00:28:33,930 --> 00:28:30,340
skeptical materialism does not do that

598
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:33,940
what it does is bracket all things that

599
00:28:40,590 --> 00:28:37,570
it counts as paranormal that is that is

600
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:40,600
is somehow out of sync with say the way

601
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:42,250
an eighth grader who's just learned

602
00:28:47,970 --> 00:28:44,890
Newton's laws of physics would describe

603
00:28:50,510 --> 00:28:47,980
the world and you've bracketed that all

604
00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:50,520
it's it's imaginary because it's not

605
00:28:59,389 --> 00:28:54,270
scientific well this is part of the data

606
00:29:03,149 --> 00:28:59,399
this is a human experience that goes so

607
00:29:05,039 --> 00:29:03,159
universally so far back has to be

608
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:05,049
counted as part of the data to begin

609
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:08,770
with if you dismiss it a priori it's

610
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:10,480
unscientific because it is

611
00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:12,910
material world it does not accord with

612
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:14,980
our preconceptions as the typical

613
00:29:21,420 --> 00:29:17,650
skeptic does you my friend are begging

614
00:29:25,410 --> 00:29:21,430
the question and I that is what I see a

615
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:25,420
lot of in what is so probably calls

616
00:29:31,620 --> 00:29:30,010
itself scientific materialism well let

617
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:31,630
me just interject because none of us

618
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:33,610
know each other but a couple years ago I

619
00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:35,770
wrote a book why science is wrong about

620
00:29:41,250 --> 00:29:39,310
almost everything and the basic premise

621
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:41,260
of the book was science has

622
00:29:47,670 --> 00:29:44,320
fundamentally flubbed consciousness and

623
00:29:51,210 --> 00:29:47,680
if you get consciousness wrong but you

624
00:29:54,450 --> 00:29:51,220
really can't get anything right and to

625
00:29:57,260 --> 00:29:54,460
further that point maybe is that I think

626
00:30:00,060 --> 00:29:57,270
we've known for at least a hundred years

627
00:30:03,210 --> 00:30:00,070
science is known by scientific means

628
00:30:04,890 --> 00:30:03,220
that we can't really measure things so

629
00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:04,900
that's what quantum physics has come

630
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:06,550
back and told us at the end of the day

631
00:30:11,850 --> 00:30:09,250
hey we can kind of approximate here but

632
00:30:14,490 --> 00:30:11,860
we're not really measuring in quite the

633
00:30:17,850 --> 00:30:14,500
way that we thought we were so I guess

634
00:30:20,970 --> 00:30:17,860
I'm with you on that one of my concerns

635
00:30:24,270 --> 00:30:20,980
and antia brought this up to you a

636
00:30:27,090 --> 00:30:24,280
little bit is that as much as we try and

637
00:30:30,030 --> 00:30:27,100
get away from scientific materialism

638
00:30:31,230 --> 00:30:30,040
and that we put it over and we want to

639
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:31,240
hold it up and say no you don't

640
00:30:34,980 --> 00:30:33,310
understand science is a method it's not

641
00:30:37,470 --> 00:30:34,990
a position statement which I totally

642
00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:37,480
agree with at the same time we want to

643
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:39,960
pull it back in we have this desire for

644
00:30:45,030 --> 00:30:42,730
backdoor materialism I call it where we

645
00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:45,040
want to say oh yeah but look at this

646
00:30:50,820 --> 00:30:48,220
study where we showed that nd ears have

647
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:50,830
this kind of experience forty two point

648
00:30:55,230 --> 00:30:52,930
six percent of the time and we want to

649
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:55,240
somehow hold on to that and give that

650
00:31:00,800 --> 00:30:57,850
meaning and elevate that up in a way

651
00:31:05,010 --> 00:31:00,810
that again tries to add some kind of

652
00:31:08,490 --> 00:31:05,020
scientific legitimacy to it that I don't

653
00:31:10,890 --> 00:31:08,500
know I mean I feel torn with that

654
00:31:14,550 --> 00:31:10,900
because I understand the appeal of that

655
00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:14,560
and I certainly do as someone who likes

656
00:31:20,250 --> 00:31:16,990
to be logical likes to be rational but I

657
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:20,260
also see the limits of that and let me

658
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:23,050
throw one tiny more piece on the table

659
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:23,850
there and

660
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:26,880
that I was surprised to find this same

661
00:31:33,289 --> 00:31:30,720
kind of what I call spiritual physics in

662
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:33,299
the work of PE again here he's writing

663
00:31:38,930 --> 00:31:36,210
in the you know 1890s and he's saying

664
00:31:41,570 --> 00:31:38,940
well suicide works like this and it can

665
00:31:44,090 --> 00:31:41,580
be broken down these ways and we spend

666
00:31:46,490 --> 00:31:44,100
this much time here and this much time

667
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:46,500
there in the afterlife and again I want

668
00:31:52,870 --> 00:31:50,130
to challenge that and say why do we want

669
00:31:55,909 --> 00:31:52,880
to reduce this down to some kind of

670
00:31:58,520 --> 00:31:55,919
physics again like we understand it we

671
00:32:00,890 --> 00:31:58,530
can measure it we understand time time

672
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:00,900
is linear what we clearly maybe he

673
00:32:05,390 --> 00:32:02,850
didn't maybe it wasn't commonly

674
00:32:08,060 --> 00:32:05,400
understood in 1890 but it certainly is

675
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:08,070
today that this concept of time in this

676
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:12,330
linearity to it is just a convenience

677
00:32:16,820 --> 00:32:15,330
that that makes us comfortable with what

678
00:32:22,610 --> 00:32:16,830
we experience but doesn't have any

679
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:22,620
reality to it so what about that well

680
00:32:27,140 --> 00:32:25,440
let me first say something about science

681
00:32:30,380 --> 00:32:27,150
I'm a science teacher a physics teacher

682
00:32:34,340 --> 00:32:30,390
and I'm enthusiastic about it and I've

683
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:34,350
produced some science myself and so I

684
00:32:38,810 --> 00:32:36,690
have an idea how science works and of

685
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:38,820
course listening to your skeptical shows

686
00:32:43,490 --> 00:32:40,770
have allowed me to see a different

687
00:32:47,270 --> 00:32:43,500
perspective so what I find interesting

688
00:32:49,490 --> 00:32:47,280
is in this nd studies and children

689
00:32:52,610 --> 00:32:49,500
children who claim to remember their

690
00:32:54,830 --> 00:32:52,620
past lives and some psy research is that

691
00:32:57,500 --> 00:32:54,840
using the scientific method or

692
00:33:00,890 --> 00:32:57,510
scientific methods which do not assume

693
00:33:04,039 --> 00:33:00,900
any metaphysical assumptions about soul

694
00:33:05,510 --> 00:33:04,049
or anything else but material word and

695
00:33:08,210 --> 00:33:05,520
energy and information that's the

696
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:08,220
package basically so that's fine I have

697
00:33:13,010 --> 00:33:10,289
no trouble with that as a physics

698
00:33:14,899 --> 00:33:13,020
teacher I know that this laws of physics

699
00:33:16,430 --> 00:33:14,909
they work well in lab and you can

700
00:33:19,220 --> 00:33:16,440
reproduce them and better lap you have

701
00:33:21,250 --> 00:33:19,230
the better you can reproduce them

702
00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:21,260
so there's no problem in that however

703
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:24,840
when this these topics are just

704
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:26,610
mentioned when they are investigated

705
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:29,370
using scientific methods you end up with

706
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:31,770
the data which is not anymore best

707
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:35,250
explained by reducing all these concepts

708
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:37,610
within the materialistic frame

709
00:33:45,190 --> 00:33:40,850
but you need to look at the data and

710
00:33:49,060 --> 00:33:45,200
then you are forced to in kind of forced

711
00:33:52,380 --> 00:33:49,070
to have a different explanation which

712
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:52,390
opens the door to other things besides

713
00:33:58,360 --> 00:33:55,250
material world I think this is what

714
00:34:01,000 --> 00:33:58,370
skeptical shows and research have very

715
00:34:03,910 --> 00:34:01,010
clearly so I find it fascinating that

716
00:34:05,980 --> 00:34:03,920
using the scientific method you just end

717
00:34:09,010 --> 00:34:05,990
up with something which isn't anymore

718
00:34:13,090 --> 00:34:09,020
within the realm of scientific method

719
00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:13,100
for those who believe in natural axiom

720
00:34:17,530 --> 00:34:15,440
that there can be no other explanations

721
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:17,540
besides natural ones

722
00:34:21,790 --> 00:34:19,690
and that's rectified in a narrower sense

723
00:34:23,290 --> 00:34:21,800
yes let me just emphasize that point

724
00:34:25,180 --> 00:34:23,300
because I think it's an awesome one is

725
00:34:32,580 --> 00:34:25,190
that I think the greatest contribution

726
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:36,490
which is well skeptics say they really

727
00:34:40,570 --> 00:34:38,450
want to believe in that there can be

728
00:34:42,909 --> 00:34:40,580
nothing else oh of course it depends on

729
00:34:45,340 --> 00:34:42,919
skeptic you talked about but that's what

730
00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:45,350
they seem to be adhering to very

731
00:34:49,389 --> 00:34:47,119
strongly that there can't be any other

732
00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:49,399
things besides what you can find in

733
00:34:55,290 --> 00:34:52,040
natural world so in a way you're right

734
00:34:58,720 --> 00:34:55,300
yeah Richard can you jump in there I

735
00:35:00,370 --> 00:34:58,730
would myself say that there's a great

736
00:35:03,970 --> 00:35:00,380
deal of evidence that is not only

737
00:35:06,490 --> 00:35:03,980
scientific but to use a bad word that I

738
00:35:11,650 --> 00:35:06,500
hope you don't mind that I use on a show

739
00:35:13,810 --> 00:35:11,660
like this but anecdotal mother or less I

740
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:13,820
think there's something to be said for

741
00:35:20,740 --> 00:35:16,810
the existence of these alternate planes

742
00:35:24,430 --> 00:35:20,750
and the survival of the human entity on

743
00:35:26,650 --> 00:35:24,440
them in some way after death but I agree

744
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:26,660
with you about a lot of it where it says

745
00:35:31,870 --> 00:35:29,570
you know like well this is how long you

746
00:35:34,630 --> 00:35:31,880
stay on the unexplained if you committed

747
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:34,640
suicide and that kind of thing I that I

748
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:37,090
I simply don't know about and I'm not

749
00:35:42,370 --> 00:35:40,130
wildly inclined to take it at face value

750
00:35:43,690 --> 00:35:42,380
well Richard let me pull you back

751
00:35:45,490 --> 00:35:43,700
because I know I talked for a long time

752
00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:45,500
what do you make of this when I'm

753
00:35:49,180 --> 00:35:47,510
calling backdoor materialism and and

754
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:49,190
I'll tell you where it really comes into

755
00:35:54,170 --> 00:35:50,730
play if you are familiar with the word

756
00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:54,180
of Thomas Campbell my big toe is very

757
00:35:59,720 --> 00:35:56,730
popular on YouTube and on the lecture

758
00:36:02,240 --> 00:35:59,730
circuit Monroe Institute if any windows

759
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:02,250
would give you an idea but what I see

760
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:03,690
coming from that is even a further

761
00:36:07,790 --> 00:36:05,760
pullback of the mystic so he's in the

762
00:36:10,190 --> 00:36:07,800
mystical realm but he's saying oh no no

763
00:36:12,170 --> 00:36:10,200
it's a simulation I can think of it as a

764
00:36:14,390 --> 00:36:12,180
computer simulation and I've done the

765
00:36:18,109 --> 00:36:14,400
math I've done the physics it's a 60

766
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:18,119
same 60 frames a second simulation I

767
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:21,290
mean there is a continuum of mystical

768
00:36:29,780 --> 00:36:25,770
experiences that get slotted into some

769
00:36:33,380 --> 00:36:29,790
very materialistic sounding expressions

770
00:36:35,540 --> 00:36:33,390
of this that I want to say concern me

771
00:36:36,650 --> 00:36:35,550
give me pause I mean I don't agree with

772
00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:36,660
I mean I don't know

773
00:36:41,780 --> 00:36:38,400
backdoor materialism what do you make of

774
00:36:43,730 --> 00:36:41,790
that I'm not familiar with Campbell's

775
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:43,740
work at all so I think I don't really

776
00:36:52,730 --> 00:36:49,410
feel qualified to comment on it I think

777
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:52,740
that even if you go that way you can say

778
00:36:58,340 --> 00:36:55,770
well it's all a simulation it's all you

779
00:37:03,620 --> 00:36:58,350
know a simulacrum constructed by the

780
00:37:07,359 --> 00:37:03,630
mind well that's true no doubt but I

781
00:37:11,530 --> 00:37:07,369
think cognitive science has proven that

782
00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:11,540
your ordinary sensory and cognitive

783
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:16,140
experience is also a simulacrum that is

784
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:18,960
constructed by your nervous system so to

785
00:37:26,060 --> 00:37:21,690
privileged one and say well this is real

786
00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:26,070
and to turn this other aside and say if

787
00:37:33,650 --> 00:37:29,760
this is false I think is fallacious

788
00:37:36,530 --> 00:37:33,660
argument but you know that that

789
00:37:38,330 --> 00:37:36,540
particular argument that you're talking

790
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:38,340
about of Campbell's I don't know enough

791
00:37:45,620 --> 00:37:42,720
about you to comment on there's a

792
00:37:49,460 --> 00:37:45,630
perspective to put here well if I'm

793
00:37:51,830 --> 00:37:49,470
referring to piecework he he tells that

794
00:37:53,330 --> 00:37:51,840
it's not his own opinion of course there

795
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:53,340
are many others who say the same thing

796
00:37:58,730 --> 00:37:56,250
that the the afterlife States is just a

797
00:38:01,940 --> 00:37:58,740
very very tiny fraction of the other

798
00:38:04,650 --> 00:38:01,950
other planes or other worlds that exist

799
00:38:07,890 --> 00:38:04,660
there and usually when somebody leaves

800
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:07,900
he saw her body they will end up in that

801
00:38:11,940 --> 00:38:09,730
different real but not in the real where

802
00:38:14,820 --> 00:38:11,950
the dead people are residing so it's

803
00:38:17,010 --> 00:38:14,830
kind of in peace words it's sacred it's

804
00:38:21,150 --> 00:38:17,020
guarded in a sense and you can't enter

805
00:38:22,770 --> 00:38:21,160
in that world without good cause so that

806
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:22,780
might explain some of the differences

807
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:24,640
you just mentioned that people go to

808
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:26,770
this vast degraded world which is called

809
00:38:30,660 --> 00:38:28,810
the astral world in the Theosophical

810
00:38:32,730 --> 00:38:30,670
language and some other people are using

811
00:38:35,849 --> 00:38:32,740
that as well and then there is this tiny

812
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:35,859
tiny kind of area which is the land of

813
00:38:40,830 --> 00:38:37,690
the dead or the Blue Island or whatever

814
00:38:43,050 --> 00:38:40,840
you want to call it and yeah but ante go

815
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:43,060
read like I'm saying Tom Campbell or go

816
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:44,650
read Robert Monroe of Monroe Institute

817
00:38:50,490 --> 00:38:48,400
those guys ib1 their process they're

818
00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:50,500
very rigorous scientifically how they

819
00:38:53,849 --> 00:38:52,510
did it you know 50 60 years ago and

820
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:53,859
they're still doing it today you can go

821
00:38:58,349 --> 00:38:56,530
to Virginia and you can sit down and

822
00:38:59,880 --> 00:38:58,359
tend a weekend and they'll give you the

823
00:39:00,840 --> 00:38:59,890
Hema sink things and you put on your

824
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:00,850
head and you'll have the out-of-body

825
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:02,890
experience but they've mapped it all off

826
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:05,050
- that's my point so I think they call

827
00:39:08,940 --> 00:39:06,970
it like room you know you go to room 9

828
00:39:13,620 --> 00:39:08,950
or level 7 I mean they have all this

829
00:39:16,230 --> 00:39:13,630
elaborate system of mapping out all

830
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:16,240
these realms - so again you know you

831
00:39:22,859 --> 00:39:19,450
would probably find similarities to

832
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:22,869
pease mapping but she'd also find

833
00:39:27,750 --> 00:39:25,090
differences and then you'd find then if

834
00:39:31,170 --> 00:39:27,760
you go back to Maryland hues like I said

835
00:39:32,910 --> 00:39:31,180
I mean she also produced and feature was

836
00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:32,920
featured in a documentary on Armageddon

837
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:35,710
and she's very convinced again devout

838
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:38,170
Catholic and someone I if you want to

839
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:41,010
say tested tested and found her to be

840
00:39:44,670 --> 00:39:43,330
effective at what she can do terms of

841
00:39:47,609 --> 00:39:44,680
out-of-body but you know she's

842
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:47,619
predicting Armageddon and that past her

843
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:48,850
date that she said it was going to

844
00:39:53,550 --> 00:39:50,710
happen that past but you know that

845
00:39:57,870 --> 00:39:53,560
changed all the stuff that drives people

846
00:40:00,480 --> 00:39:57,880
nuts about those mystical those crazy

847
00:40:02,730 --> 00:40:00,490
mystics again you know what I mean yeah

848
00:40:05,820 --> 00:40:02,740
well I was thinking about you Rick and

849
00:40:08,550 --> 00:40:05,830
Ziva you had him in the show show some

850
00:40:10,349 --> 00:40:08,560
years ago and I read his books and that

851
00:40:12,930 --> 00:40:10,359
it seems to me that what he is

852
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:12,940
describing about the afterlife states it

853
00:40:17,940 --> 00:40:15,490
cohere is quite well what Pease same for

854
00:40:20,010 --> 00:40:17,950
instance and he even told that he

855
00:40:21,870 --> 00:40:20,020
guidance to begin with he met this

856
00:40:24,569 --> 00:40:21,880
person I am not sure if he called him a

857
00:40:27,839 --> 00:40:24,579
master or some some exalted being who

858
00:40:30,540 --> 00:40:27,849
who was really really kind of familiar

859
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:30,550
with all these states that were going on

860
00:40:35,579 --> 00:40:32,410
and he helped him to move between

861
00:40:37,470 --> 00:40:35,589
different phases and stage so he could

862
00:40:40,290 --> 00:40:37,480
guidance and this is explained in peace

863
00:40:43,290 --> 00:40:40,300
book as well how this is organized in a

864
00:40:44,910 --> 00:40:43,300
way so I found it fascinating that Ziva

865
00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:44,920
who had nothing to do with this of it to

866
00:40:49,260 --> 00:40:46,480
begin with even though he's aware that

867
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:49,270
it exists his experiences maths well in

868
00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:52,690
this regard with what P is saying so it

869
00:40:56,730 --> 00:40:54,790
depends if you go unprepared you might

870
00:40:59,760 --> 00:40:56,740
see very different things if you are

871
00:41:01,530 --> 00:40:59,770
prepared and kind of you might say it

872
00:41:03,930 --> 00:41:01,540
purified or having these mystical

873
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:03,940
experiences and I've found Ziva's were

874
00:41:07,950 --> 00:41:06,970
quite impressive in that respect go

875
00:41:09,750 --> 00:41:07,960
ahead I'm sorry Richard

876
00:41:13,650 --> 00:41:09,760
well let me just just say briefly you

877
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:13,660
know for one thing let us assume that

878
00:41:21,990 --> 00:41:18,250
there are these alternate realities they

879
00:41:26,339 --> 00:41:22,000
are assesses necessarily non earthly

880
00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:26,349
reality right but our cognition is

881
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:29,920
totally shaped by our experience of

882
00:41:35,490 --> 00:41:32,890
personal reality it is impossible for

883
00:41:36,420 --> 00:41:35,500
example just try to visualize a color

884
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:36,430
you've never seen

885
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:40,450
I find that impossible so what you're

886
00:41:46,559 --> 00:41:43,890
doing is taking arguably these

887
00:41:49,140 --> 00:41:46,569
experiences of alternate realities and

888
00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:49,150
framing them in the language of this

889
00:41:55,950 --> 00:41:52,560
reality and there are bound to be

890
00:41:58,829 --> 00:41:55,960
differences even apparent contradictions

891
00:42:01,559 --> 00:41:58,839
I myself would not privilege any one of

892
00:42:03,630 --> 00:42:01,569
these accounts all radically over the

893
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:03,640
others whether it's Robert Monroe's or

894
00:42:08,670 --> 00:42:07,150
Sweden boobs or anyone elses so I think

895
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:08,680
those those things they can recount I

896
00:42:14,010 --> 00:42:10,410
think they're pointing to something

897
00:42:17,730 --> 00:42:14,020
let's not be too 100 percent certain

898
00:42:21,450 --> 00:42:17,740
that we know XYZ about exactly how it is

899
00:42:23,700 --> 00:42:21,460
I love that let's take that big caution

900
00:42:26,069 --> 00:42:23,710
sign and make sure we pull it out on

901
00:42:28,980 --> 00:42:26,079
each other all the time when we need it

902
00:42:31,660 --> 00:42:28,990
and and to others too because III think

903
00:42:33,940 --> 00:42:31,670
you're so right I mean even if we just

904
00:42:36,820 --> 00:42:33,950
kind of again trying to use our rational

905
00:42:39,970 --> 00:42:36,830
logical mind I think you've hit on a key

906
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:39,980
part of that and that that is our human

907
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:43,010
cognitive processes as we understand

908
00:42:46,660 --> 00:42:43,490
them

909
00:42:49,540 --> 00:42:46,670
are filtering all this stuff right so

910
00:42:51,220 --> 00:42:49,550
it's all contaminated by our filter and

911
00:42:53,380 --> 00:42:51,230
as soon as we realize that we kind of

912
00:42:56,290 --> 00:42:53,390
throw up our hands to say okay well we

913
00:42:57,700 --> 00:42:56,300
can play this consensus reality game

914
00:42:59,950 --> 00:42:57,710
where you're talking and I'm pretending

915
00:43:01,600 --> 00:42:59,960
I understand you and I'm talking and you

916
00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:01,610
pretend you're understanding me and it's

917
00:43:05,710 --> 00:43:03,710
a useful fun game and maybe we'll feel

918
00:43:07,450 --> 00:43:05,720
better but at the end of the day there's

919
00:43:10,690 --> 00:43:07,460
all these filters going on so I love

920
00:43:12,250 --> 00:43:10,700
that look let me if I can switch gears

921
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:12,260
and try and touch on a couple other

922
00:43:17,430 --> 00:43:14,960
things tangential but I think very

923
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:17,440
interesting Richard you wrote a very

924
00:43:23,950 --> 00:43:21,290
excellent introduction to this book from

925
00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:23,960
death to rebirth a book about this

926
00:43:31,210 --> 00:43:27,680
Finnish mystic peak earthís and it was

927
00:43:33,730 --> 00:43:31,220
co-authored by our guest on tea and a

928
00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:33,740
couple of other folks as well and you're

929
00:43:37,390 --> 00:43:35,200
gonna want to check it out it's really

930
00:43:39,070 --> 00:43:37,400
let me say that because I've kind of

931
00:43:42,580 --> 00:43:39,080
been interested in talking about these

932
00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:42,590
other topics it is a fascinating read it

933
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:46,700
is stunning in a lot of ways to be

934
00:43:53,620 --> 00:43:50,480
reading these words from a hundred years

935
00:43:56,460 --> 00:43:53,630
ago that do seem so relevant do seem so

936
00:43:59,410 --> 00:43:56,470
pertinent do seem so connected with a

937
00:44:02,620 --> 00:43:59,420
modern NDE account that you might read

938
00:44:05,110 --> 00:44:02,630
today or a modern mystical experience

939
00:44:08,830 --> 00:44:05,120
and that in and of itself is something

940
00:44:12,580 --> 00:44:08,840
we could really explore and pull apart

941
00:44:14,530 --> 00:44:12,590
but I'm gonna I'm gonna move on a little

942
00:44:15,820 --> 00:44:14,540
bit because I'll have all the links and

943
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:15,830
people should definitely check out the

944
00:44:20,140 --> 00:44:18,050
book and I encourage you to do so but

945
00:44:21,430 --> 00:44:20,150
back to this introduction that you wrote

946
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:21,440
Richard there was a couple things in

947
00:44:26,590 --> 00:44:24,170
there that I I thought they just kind of

948
00:44:29,230 --> 00:44:26,600
piqued my interest and one thing I want

949
00:44:32,650 --> 00:44:29,240
to talk about is this this myth of

950
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:32,660
progress or non myth of progress if you

951
00:44:38,290 --> 00:44:35,690
don't think progress is a myth I hear

952
00:44:42,460 --> 00:44:38,300
this all the time the veil is thinning

953
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:42,470
we are more in a consciousness world

954
00:44:48,150 --> 00:44:45,040
evolved consciousness world

955
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:48,160
I'm not so sure it in particular as

956
00:44:53,220 --> 00:44:50,890
we're just talking about how is the veil

957
00:44:56,210 --> 00:44:53,230
thinned how do we know that the the veil

958
00:44:59,520 --> 00:44:56,220
has thinned or we've made this progress

959
00:45:01,710 --> 00:44:59,530
what we do look at the work of PE and we

960
00:45:04,380 --> 00:45:01,720
say you know how have we really

961
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:04,390
progressed I'm not entirely sure we have

962
00:45:12,210 --> 00:45:08,710
and I'm not sure that I believe in the

963
00:45:14,550 --> 00:45:12,220
myth of progress and that myth is being

964
00:45:17,250 --> 00:45:14,560
questioned now because in one sense

965
00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:17,260
we've enjoyed a lot of progress we live

966
00:45:24,180 --> 00:45:21,310
in absurd luxury compared even to the

967
00:45:26,010 --> 00:45:24,190
aristocrats of 200 years ago we can talk

968
00:45:29,190 --> 00:45:26,020
about an ordinary middle-class American

969
00:45:32,810 --> 00:45:29,200
person in that sense there's been

970
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:32,820
progress there's also been progress in

971
00:45:39,630 --> 00:45:37,050
things like environmental degradation

972
00:45:43,290 --> 00:45:39,640
weapons of mass destruction to use a

973
00:45:46,740 --> 00:45:43,300
phrase used by somebody or another so

974
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:46,750
does this all add up to progress I don't

975
00:45:54,780 --> 00:45:52,090
know I do though that as the Christian

976
00:45:57,810 --> 00:45:54,790
worldview was losing its hold during the

977
00:46:01,230 --> 00:45:57,820
Enlightenment it rapidly became

978
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:01,240
supplanted you know in the early 19th

979
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:03,730
century say with the Whig notion of

980
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:06,810
history which is all about progress so

981
00:46:13,110 --> 00:46:11,050
the shall we say eschatology of Christ's

982
00:46:15,390 --> 00:46:13,120
coming down fixing all things at the

983
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:15,400
time of the end was starting to weaken

984
00:46:23,150 --> 00:46:18,880
so we had to replace it with a myth of

985
00:46:26,310 --> 00:46:23,160
gradually incremental improvements or

986
00:46:29,630 --> 00:46:26,320
dramatic improvements and progress now a

987
00:46:32,820 --> 00:46:29,640
lot of a new age has taken that into

988
00:46:34,290 --> 00:46:32,830
this in a sense spiritualize did by

989
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:34,300
saying yeah we're just about to enter

990
00:46:39,540 --> 00:46:37,330
into a brilliant you know new era and

991
00:46:41,550 --> 00:46:39,550
everybody's awakening I don't know if

992
00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:41,560
that's the case at all

993
00:46:44,910 --> 00:46:43,630
when I first became interested in a lot

994
00:46:47,730 --> 00:46:44,920
of things that were you know in the in

995
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:47,740
the 1980s the New Age movement was at

996
00:46:52,049 --> 00:46:50,110
its height and there it was a lot more

997
00:46:53,789 --> 00:46:52,059
possible to believe that

998
00:46:55,769 --> 00:46:53,799
but 30 years later it's a lot more

999
00:46:58,109 --> 00:46:55,779
ambiguous especially since well alright

1000
00:47:00,989 --> 00:46:58,119
a smartphone is a great improvement in a

1001
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:00,999
lot of ways but in some ways it's also

1002
00:47:03,929 --> 00:47:02,410
seems to be like dulling people's

1003
00:47:07,859 --> 00:47:03,939
intelligence and making them more

1004
00:47:11,519 --> 00:47:07,869
isolated so I myself do not necessarily

1005
00:47:14,579 --> 00:47:11,529
believe that so it's not a view that I'm

1006
00:47:16,890 --> 00:47:14,589
really willing to defend it may be so it

1007
00:47:18,179 --> 00:47:16,900
may not be so what I took out of your

1008
00:47:19,979 --> 00:47:18,189
introduction that I thought was very

1009
00:47:22,109 --> 00:47:19,989
interesting and worth bringing up and

1010
00:47:25,890 --> 00:47:22,119
talking about it because I agree you

1011
00:47:28,319 --> 00:47:25,900
cannot suggested that medicine and the

1012
00:47:32,299 --> 00:47:28,329
technological advancements in medicine

1013
00:47:35,279 --> 00:47:32,309
might be the wedge that kind of further

1014
00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:35,289
furthers our understanding of what

1015
00:47:40,380 --> 00:47:37,569
progress means and whether progress is a

1016
00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:40,390
myth and I think that's a really that

1017
00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:43,209
brings it to a reality and I think I

1018
00:47:48,059 --> 00:47:46,089
sent you a link to this Italian doctor

1019
00:47:51,089 --> 00:47:48,069
that some people have probably heard

1020
00:47:53,370 --> 00:47:51,099
about who is but very renowned and very

1021
00:47:58,160 --> 00:47:53,380
qualified and is talking about doing a

1022
00:48:01,709 --> 00:47:58,170
head transplantation in 2018 and I think

1023
00:48:04,910 --> 00:48:01,719
to me that really gets cuts to the core

1024
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:04,920
if you will of some of these ideas about

1025
00:48:08,699 --> 00:48:06,130
transhumanism

1026
00:48:12,569 --> 00:48:08,709
and how that might intersect with our

1027
00:48:16,019 --> 00:48:12,579
ideas about what it is to be a spiritual

1028
00:48:19,439 --> 00:48:16,029
being and the transcendence of the

1029
00:48:22,739 --> 00:48:19,449
spiritual experience so maybe both of

1030
00:48:26,579 --> 00:48:22,749
you want to talk about what some of

1031
00:48:28,439 --> 00:48:26,589
these technological advances white might

1032
00:48:29,729 --> 00:48:28,449
mean and how they might challenge you

1033
00:48:33,419 --> 00:48:29,739
know we've been here for almost an hour

1034
00:48:35,069 --> 00:48:33,429
talking about all these cool things what

1035
00:48:37,769 --> 00:48:35,079
about when the technology comes along

1036
00:48:42,169 --> 00:48:37,779
and says oh no problem I can move your

1037
00:48:45,089 --> 00:48:42,179
soul from this entity to this entity is

1038
00:48:47,669 --> 00:48:45,099
that going to is that going to be the

1039
00:48:51,109 --> 00:48:47,679
wedge that now causes us to have to

1040
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:51,119
re-examine all these great ideas we have

1041
00:48:57,660 --> 00:48:53,410
can I make a comment off the earlier

1042
00:49:00,419 --> 00:48:57,670
point about thinning the whale first so

1043
00:49:01,919 --> 00:49:00,429
I think that if you take a look at lots

1044
00:49:05,549 --> 00:49:01,929
of perspective which reached up nicely

1045
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:05,559
brought up is that to say 300 400 years

1046
00:49:08,010 --> 00:49:05,890
ago

1047
00:49:10,290 --> 00:49:08,020
if you spoke about reincarnation art but

1048
00:49:12,090 --> 00:49:10,300
experiences you were in serious trouble

1049
00:49:14,430 --> 00:49:12,100
in many parts in Europe

1050
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:14,440
you are not anymore and actually these

1051
00:49:19,050 --> 00:49:17,410
ideas which we take so self-evident that

1052
00:49:21,180 --> 00:49:19,060
you can talk about these things and you

1053
00:49:23,340 --> 00:49:21,190
know many people they people know who

1054
00:49:26,790 --> 00:49:23,350
have no nothing to do with religions or

1055
00:49:28,350 --> 00:49:26,800
or theosophy or any spiritual moments

1056
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:28,360
they know about these things a little

1057
00:49:32,340 --> 00:49:31,330
bit at least so it's a cultural thing I

1058
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:32,350
mean you're talking about but it is

1059
00:49:35,820 --> 00:49:33,730
you're talking about the Europeans who

1060
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:35,830
who are the only people who throughout

1061
00:49:40,290 --> 00:49:37,570
time throughout is through the only

1062
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:40,300
group bits that's going away from right

1063
00:49:46,620 --> 00:49:43,530
now all the shaman and all the people in

1064
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:46,630
that's true but there is some progress

1065
00:49:50,730 --> 00:49:48,640
if you think in terms of hundreds of

1066
00:49:52,650 --> 00:49:50,740
years which you can talk about what you

1067
00:49:54,660 --> 00:49:52,660
can write and we can have even this

1068
00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:54,670
conversation with no fear I mean it

1069
00:50:00,330 --> 00:49:57,250
wasn't possible in in in the 16th

1070
00:50:01,710 --> 00:50:00,340
century say yeah we all know that but

1071
00:50:03,420 --> 00:50:01,720
ante what are we gonna do when this guy

1072
00:50:05,250 --> 00:50:03,430
takes the head off of one guy and puts

1073
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:05,260
it on another guy yeah I mean that's

1074
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:06,850
gonna answer a lot that's gonna answer a

1075
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:08,530
lot of questions we're gonna be we might

1076
00:50:13,110 --> 00:50:09,850
be having a very different conversation

1077
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:13,120
next year let me make a confession here

1078
00:50:17,850 --> 00:50:15,850
I'm a part-time skeptic it means that

1079
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:17,860
when we're dealing with questions which

1080
00:50:21,510 --> 00:50:19,690
are in the realm of science I'm always

1081
00:50:23,310 --> 00:50:21,520
looking for the best evidence as you as

1082
00:50:25,950 --> 00:50:23,320
well but what I'm looking for I'm

1083
00:50:28,260 --> 00:50:25,960
looking for not one study but many

1084
00:50:30,030 --> 00:50:28,270
studies replication in the independent

1085
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:30,040
replications and then I'm looking at the

1086
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:31,930
whole picture which is meta-analysis or

1087
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:34,450
reviews or something like that and then

1088
00:50:38,940 --> 00:50:36,640
we know quite certain so what I'm saying

1089
00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:38,950
about that experiment I took a look at

1090
00:50:44,130 --> 00:50:42,250
it I'll wait and see and after a couple

1091
00:50:46,650 --> 00:50:44,140
of years and after replications are many

1092
00:50:49,350 --> 00:50:46,660
many rounds then we know what is the

1093
00:50:52,140 --> 00:50:49,360
data that we can trust and then I can

1094
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:52,150
make my conclusions about itself even if

1095
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:54,130
it happens once it's not something which

1096
00:51:01,170 --> 00:50:58,050
would be scientifically that say

1097
00:51:04,230 --> 00:51:01,180
revolutionary unless it's replicated as

1098
00:51:08,380 --> 00:51:04,240
you know so I'm a bit well to hesitate

1099
00:51:14,620 --> 00:51:12,400
I'm not a scientist and that's largely

1100
00:51:17,289 --> 00:51:14,630
because I'm skeptical you know some of

1101
00:51:19,359 --> 00:51:17,299
the fundamental premises of science but

1102
00:51:21,549 --> 00:51:19,369
all right you're talking about you can

1103
00:51:24,670 --> 00:51:21,559
transplant consciousness technological

1104
00:51:27,690 --> 00:51:24,680
okay let's go with that what if you go

1105
00:51:29,829 --> 00:51:27,700
back to the year 1750 and to learning

1106
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:29,839
scientific savants are talking about

1107
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:31,910
whether it would be possible to land a

1108
00:51:37,230 --> 00:51:35,210
man on the moon one of them says it is

1109
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:37,240
one of them says it will never happen

1110
00:51:45,180 --> 00:51:39,890
which one was right well the answer is

1111
00:51:48,250 --> 00:51:45,190
obvious but here's the catch what the

1112
00:51:53,170 --> 00:51:48,260
increase in knowledge required to put a

1113
00:51:57,039 --> 00:51:53,180
man on the moon took science far beyond

1114
00:52:00,279 --> 00:51:57,049
what the knowledge of its day of 1750

1115
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:00,289
was so if you are actually going to get

1116
00:52:05,940 --> 00:52:01,510
to a point where you're transplanting

1117
00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:05,950
consciousness in reality rather than

1118
00:52:11,380 --> 00:52:08,480
speculatively and you know arthur c

1119
00:52:12,910 --> 00:52:11,390
clarke land you may have to know a great

1120
00:52:15,759 --> 00:52:12,920
deal more about consciousness and they

1121
00:52:18,009 --> 00:52:15,769
do now i'm as you know even getting a

1122
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:18,019
coherent definition of consciousness has

1123
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:21,410
been rather difficult to extract from

1124
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:26,450
the experts true and here's where I was

1125
00:52:31,329 --> 00:52:29,210
going guys and again I apologize for not

1126
00:52:33,910 --> 00:52:31,339
having the exact line the exact quote

1127
00:52:38,349 --> 00:52:33,920
from your introduction but what I

1128
00:52:40,319 --> 00:52:38,359
thought was a great point was that you

1129
00:52:43,749 --> 00:52:40,329
know we can talk about these things

1130
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:43,759
philosophically but technology that's

1131
00:52:47,559 --> 00:52:45,650
the advantage of technology in

1132
00:52:49,690 --> 00:52:47,569
particular and if we want to make a

1133
00:52:52,509 --> 00:52:49,700
distinction between technology and

1134
00:52:54,339 --> 00:52:52,519
engineering and science which i think is

1135
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:54,349
a useful distinction sometimes to make

1136
00:52:58,960 --> 00:52:56,930
you know a lot of people don't

1137
00:53:00,490 --> 00:52:58,970
understand science but the point of

1138
00:53:02,620 --> 00:53:00,500
their fricking iphone and say see this

1139
00:53:06,279 --> 00:53:02,630
hi phone eight let me show you what it

1140
00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:06,289
can do and we can't deny what it can do

1141
00:53:15,210 --> 00:53:10,730
and in medicine is even trickier right

1142
00:53:18,460 --> 00:53:15,220
so when we do what is it the Krispy gene

1143
00:53:20,290 --> 00:53:18,470
therapy and we're rewiring and we're

1144
00:53:24,490 --> 00:53:20,300
changing genes

1145
00:53:27,090 --> 00:53:24,500
or even something as as kind of common

1146
00:53:29,770 --> 00:53:27,100
places in terms our understanding about

1147
00:53:32,530 --> 00:53:29,780
neuroplasticity and our ability of the

1148
00:53:35,710 --> 00:53:32,540
brain to rewire itself I think you were

1149
00:53:38,290 --> 00:53:35,720
correct Richard to point to medicine in

1150
00:53:40,660 --> 00:53:38,300
particular in the technology of medicine

1151
00:53:43,150 --> 00:53:40,670
as being kind of the the tip of the

1152
00:53:45,820 --> 00:53:43,160
spear in some ways in terms of getting

1153
00:53:47,380 --> 00:53:45,830
at some of these questions and I just

1154
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:47,390
said I would just take that one step

1155
00:53:53,410 --> 00:53:50,810
further and say here's a spear that

1156
00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:53,420
seems to be poking out and that is this

1157
00:53:57,550 --> 00:53:55,040
guy's doing a fricking head transplant

1158
00:53:58,930 --> 00:53:57,560
and I don't know what's gonna happen and

1159
00:54:01,450 --> 00:53:58,940
I don't know how I'm gonna feel about

1160
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:01,460
what's it what happens and I don't think

1161
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:04,370
it's going to be anything clear in like

1162
00:54:08,770 --> 00:54:07,010
you're saying auntie but this is not the

1163
00:54:10,750 --> 00:54:08,780
kind of thing but we're gonna need five

1164
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:10,760
or six studies I mean we're gonna have

1165
00:54:15,010 --> 00:54:12,710
somebody who used to have a head and now

1166
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:15,020
has a different head and that's gonna

1167
00:54:20,500 --> 00:54:18,050
answer questions right away I mean right

1168
00:54:22,870 --> 00:54:20,510
away yeah I think that medicine is

1169
00:54:25,420 --> 00:54:22,880
indeed a key here because without

1170
00:54:28,420 --> 00:54:25,430
medicine we wouldn't have NDE results as

1171
00:54:30,550 --> 00:54:28,430
we know them and they have produced many

1172
00:54:32,740 --> 00:54:30,560
techniques which allow us to study these

1173
00:54:35,110 --> 00:54:32,750
phenomena even if the researcher doesn't

1174
00:54:37,420 --> 00:54:35,120
believe in any metaphysical explanation

1175
00:54:39,940 --> 00:54:37,430
of it he or she might end up with having

1176
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:39,950
the data which suggests that the mind

1177
00:54:44,620 --> 00:54:42,290
doesn't equal the brain as you tend to

1178
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:44,630
say here in skeptical that I'm skeptical

1179
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:49,730
so I think that medicine will play and

1180
00:54:54,070 --> 00:54:51,770
is playing an important role of changing

1181
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:54,080
people's mind for instance Richard talks

1182
00:55:00,150 --> 00:54:57,170
about in his excellent introduction to

1183
00:55:02,980 --> 00:55:00,160
the book about urban Alexander and his

1184
00:55:07,180 --> 00:55:02,990
experiences and when these are coming

1185
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:07,190
into public view and many many people at

1186
00:55:12,940 --> 00:55:09,770
least in the West they get to know about

1187
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:12,950
these special cases and perhaps even the

1188
00:55:17,860 --> 00:55:15,770
scientific resets in in general in this

1189
00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:17,870
field of it might change their minds at

1190
00:55:24,790 --> 00:55:21,680
least a little bit I think it's true

1191
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:24,800
medicine has pushed the boundaries path

1192
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:29,330
back a little bit but all of this to go

1193
00:55:34,740 --> 00:55:30,890
back to your example of the head

1194
00:55:42,460 --> 00:55:38,950
these hypothetical things and you know

1195
00:55:44,950 --> 00:55:42,470
let's say let's say it's done okay

1196
00:55:48,550 --> 00:55:44,960
there's kind of an assumption that we

1197
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:48,560
know what's gonna happen once it's done

1198
00:55:52,750 --> 00:55:50,450
that if you transplant someone else's

1199
00:55:55,210 --> 00:55:52,760
brain onto someone else's body the

1200
00:55:59,859 --> 00:55:55,220
person whose brain it is is gonna you

1201
00:56:03,280 --> 00:55:59,869
know be the identity it's probably not

1202
00:56:05,290 --> 00:56:03,290
going to be that simple and a lot of

1203
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:05,300
these hypothetical discussions and the

1204
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:07,730
philosophical world is full of them

1205
00:56:12,430 --> 00:56:09,890
they're interesting but often they

1206
00:56:15,670 --> 00:56:12,440
presuppose what kind of result is going

1207
00:56:18,430 --> 00:56:15,680
to take place from some purely

1208
00:56:20,319 --> 00:56:18,440
hypothetical thing that whose outcome we

1209
00:56:22,750 --> 00:56:20,329
really know nothing about so I think

1210
00:56:25,890 --> 00:56:22,760
yeah science has pushed the boundaries

1211
00:56:28,599 --> 00:56:25,900
by of medicine by in the first place

1212
00:56:31,030 --> 00:56:28,609
suggesting that showing that well

1213
00:56:33,339 --> 00:56:31,040
stopping the heart doesn't mean definite

1214
00:56:36,339 --> 00:56:33,349
renzo well stopping a brain waves don't

1215
00:56:39,550 --> 00:56:36,349
seem to you know entirely me either but

1216
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:39,560
we're where's gonna go further than you

1217
00:56:44,020 --> 00:56:41,839
know it becomes very speculative very

1218
00:56:48,430 --> 00:56:44,030
fast that's all I would like to say

1219
00:56:51,309 --> 00:56:48,440
about let me up in the time that we have

1220
00:56:53,559 --> 00:56:51,319
left and it's been a great chat I don't

1221
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:53,569
know how it's going to be received by

1222
00:56:57,700 --> 00:56:55,040
listeners because you find it bounced

1223
00:56:59,410 --> 00:56:57,710
all over the place and engaged in some

1224
00:57:00,609 --> 00:56:59,420
inside baseball but that's kind of the

1225
00:57:03,670 --> 00:57:00,619
nature of these things if you're going

1226
00:57:05,470 --> 00:57:03,680
to have just a a very plain vanila

1227
00:57:08,740 --> 00:57:05,480
conversation it probably wouldn't be

1228
00:57:13,599 --> 00:57:08,750
interesting to us you know so in another

1229
00:57:17,470 --> 00:57:13,609
part of the process that is this show is

1230
00:57:21,339 --> 00:57:17,480
skeptic oh is this idea of conspiracy

1231
00:57:25,059 --> 00:57:21,349
and it's not because I like conspiracies

1232
00:57:28,180 --> 00:57:25,069
I was never even aware of the idea of

1233
00:57:31,300 --> 00:57:28,190
any kind of that the role the conspiracy

1234
00:57:33,700 --> 00:57:31,310
played except in following the data

1235
00:57:36,069 --> 00:57:33,710
following the the scientific data why

1236
00:57:37,839 --> 00:57:36,079
are they presenting it like this and why

1237
00:57:40,510 --> 00:57:37,849
are they they seem to be know one thing

1238
00:57:42,930 --> 00:57:40,520
and say something else and I think

1239
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:42,940
Richard some of your work has become

1240
00:57:48,420 --> 00:57:46,160
extremely popular among

1241
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:48,430
people who would consider themselves

1242
00:57:53,140 --> 00:57:51,170
conspiratorial because it's just the

1243
00:57:55,750 --> 00:57:53,150
nature of again I don't think you're a

1244
00:57:58,300 --> 00:57:55,760
conspiracy guy per se or conspiracy

1245
00:58:00,580 --> 00:57:58,310
theorist far from it you've just not

1246
00:58:02,970 --> 00:58:00,590
followed the data where it leads and

1247
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:02,980
some of the things you've discovered

1248
00:58:08,650 --> 00:58:06,770
people find shattering of their existing

1249
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:08,660
belief systems and I want to talk about

1250
00:58:11,350 --> 00:58:10,130
a couple of those because there's a

1251
00:58:14,620 --> 00:58:11,360
couples that I think are really

1252
00:58:18,820 --> 00:58:14,630
interesting to kind of just get out

1253
00:58:21,910 --> 00:58:18,830
there one is again and if I got this

1254
00:58:25,230 --> 00:58:21,920
wrong you know you tell me but from your

1255
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:25,240
very excellent how God became God

1256
00:58:33,820 --> 00:58:28,370
best-selling book one of the points you

1257
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:33,830
make is this idea that we have about the

1258
00:58:40,300 --> 00:58:36,650
devil Satan the bad guy what whoever you

1259
00:58:42,490 --> 00:58:40,310
want to characterize him in the Old

1260
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:42,500
Testament and before the Old Testament

1261
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:45,170
we can pretty much go back and trace

1262
00:58:51,490 --> 00:58:49,010
that as an invention that seems to pop

1263
00:58:52,060 --> 00:58:51,500
up in these books kind of out of thin

1264
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:52,070
air

1265
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:54,170
did I get that wrong or do you want to

1266
00:58:57,730 --> 00:58:55,730
elaborate that on that a little bit

1267
00:59:00,670 --> 00:58:57,740
because I think that's that's really

1268
00:59:03,670 --> 00:59:00,680
really significant for the way a lot of

1269
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:03,680
people are processing that history yeah

1270
00:59:13,150 --> 00:59:07,730
well to give a very simple or simplistic

1271
00:59:16,540 --> 00:59:13,160
answer Judaism before the sack of the

1272
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:16,550
first temple in 586 BC doesn't really

1273
00:59:23,110 --> 00:59:18,650
seem to have very much of a concept of a

1274
00:59:24,730 --> 00:59:23,120
devil and Yahweh is kind of playing both

1275
00:59:26,770 --> 00:59:24,740
sides yeah always the good guy and

1276
00:59:29,380 --> 00:59:26,780
always the bad guy right I mean it's

1277
00:59:31,180 --> 00:59:29,390
radical monotheism I make peace and

1278
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:31,190
create evil that's from the Book of

1279
00:59:36,820 --> 00:59:31,730
Isaiah

1280
00:59:39,220 --> 00:59:36,830
I the LORD do all these things after the

1281
00:59:42,250 --> 00:59:39,230
Exile the Babylonian exile in the sixth

1282
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:42,260
century BC this concept of Satan comes

1283
00:59:48,990 --> 00:59:45,610
in now religious scholars generally say

1284
00:59:51,450 --> 00:59:49,000
and maybe the evidence isn't really

1285
00:59:53,250 --> 00:59:51,460
so strong for this as it might be but

1286
00:59:54,950 --> 00:59:53,260
that this concept of the devil was

1287
00:59:56,940 --> 00:59:54,960
introduced into Judaism from

1288
00:59:59,940 --> 00:59:56,950
Zoroastrians because they were living in

1289
01:00:03,930 --> 00:59:59,950
a Persian Empire and Zoroastrianism was

1290
01:00:07,350 --> 01:00:03,940
very dualistic with a dark figure called

1291
01:00:11,460 --> 01:00:07,360
our Herman so that is the you know

1292
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:11,470
standard scholarly answer I don't see

1293
01:00:17,730 --> 01:00:14,610
any particular reason to doubt it and

1294
01:00:21,450 --> 01:00:17,740
later on this devil starts to become

1295
01:00:23,700 --> 01:00:21,460
more and more prominent Satan in the

1296
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:23,710
book of Job which is written probably in

1297
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:26,250
the sixth century BC nobody really knows

1298
01:00:32,670 --> 01:00:29,970
Satan is not really God's enemy Satan

1299
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:32,680
heaven to pay God a visit hey Satan

1300
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:35,050
how's it going what even up to blow up

1301
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:38,170
and welcome around hey that joke guy of

1302
01:00:42,090 --> 01:00:40,240
mine he's a pretty great guy huh oh yeah

1303
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:42,100
well if you poke him a little he won't

1304
01:00:46,470 --> 01:00:44,170
be so great that's how the book of Job

1305
01:00:50,430 --> 01:00:46,480
starts there's certainly no cosmic

1306
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:50,440
opposition in the early days of Judaism

1307
01:00:57,540 --> 01:00:53,730
and this is survived in Jewish mysticism

1308
01:00:59,790 --> 01:00:57,550
to this day the angels are not

1309
01:01:07,260 --> 01:00:59,800
necessarily evil but they're not

1310
01:01:13,470 --> 01:01:07,270
necessarily friends at camp accusing

1311
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:13,480
figures like Satan mutated yet further

1312
01:01:20,940 --> 01:01:15,490
into the you know Christian devil that

1313
01:01:24,780 --> 01:01:20,950
we we know and I suppose well you know

1314
01:01:26,790 --> 01:01:24,790
there's an interesting tie back here to

1315
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:26,800
something that auntie was saying earlier

1316
01:01:34,110 --> 01:01:29,170
in the show about the distinction

1317
01:01:38,910 --> 01:01:34,120
between Christ consciousness and Jesus

1318
01:01:40,890 --> 01:01:38,920
and you know because in this work that

1319
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:40,900
you've done this incredible body of work

1320
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:44,170
in pulling apart examining and carefully

1321
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:46,450
analyzing again we're talking to a guy

1322
01:01:53,670 --> 01:01:50,010
who's Harvard educated Oxford educated a

1323
01:01:56,820 --> 01:01:53,680
true scholar incapable of doing this

1324
01:02:00,360 --> 01:01:56,830
work when you go look at the text it's

1325
01:02:01,890 --> 01:02:00,370
telling us a different story than what

1326
01:02:05,940 --> 01:02:01,900
the Mystics

1327
01:02:09,990 --> 01:02:05,950
are experiencing in some cases and to

1328
01:02:13,140 --> 01:02:10,000
that end you know how do you square the

1329
01:02:16,890 --> 01:02:13,150
idea of what you just said about satan

1330
01:02:20,039 --> 01:02:16,900
about the devil about evil with the

1331
01:02:23,789 --> 01:02:20,049
experience that so many people have of

1332
01:02:27,539 --> 01:02:23,799
the reality of that and is it possible

1333
01:02:30,210 --> 01:02:27,549
that since this is all kind of a

1334
01:02:32,180 --> 01:02:30,220
thought-form thing as we were talking

1335
01:02:34,650 --> 01:02:32,190
about when we're talking about the

1336
01:02:39,059 --> 01:02:34,660
idiosyncratic nature of all of this and

1337
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:39,069
how we're all making all this up in our

1338
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:42,010
heads but at the same time as we make up

1339
01:02:46,829 --> 01:02:44,410
the same thing we seem to live that same

1340
01:02:51,690 --> 01:02:46,839
thing I mean have you given any thought

1341
01:02:54,900 --> 01:02:51,700
to how we pull apart the the thought

1342
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:54,910
form understanding of things versus the

1343
01:02:59,849 --> 01:02:57,730
spiritual reality again reality's a

1344
01:03:02,730 --> 01:02:59,859
tricky word of things do you get what

1345
01:03:06,089 --> 01:03:02,740
I'm driving at there yeah and it's a

1346
01:03:08,579 --> 01:03:06,099
very long and complex answer but I you

1347
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:08,589
know to give a short answer to part of

1348
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:12,010
it I think the thought-form concept that

1349
01:03:19,769 --> 01:03:16,450
you mentioned is important because human

1350
01:03:22,650 --> 01:03:19,779
thought has power it has power it

1351
01:03:24,690 --> 01:03:22,660
mabel's you to build bridges and follow

1352
01:03:27,029 --> 01:03:24,700
up other people and all sorts of things

1353
01:03:29,519 --> 01:03:27,039
like that but the thought itself as a

1354
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:29,529
kind of power if a lot of people have

1355
01:03:37,049 --> 01:03:35,170
the same thought its power square and in

1356
01:03:37,620 --> 01:03:37,059
the alcohol literature this is called an

1357
01:03:40,109 --> 01:03:37,630
egregore

1358
01:03:42,390 --> 01:03:40,119
which is what what I just said it's a

1359
01:03:44,250 --> 01:03:42,400
collectively generated thought form that

1360
01:03:47,430 --> 01:03:44,260
appears to have a quasi independent

1361
01:03:49,019 --> 01:03:47,440
existence if you don't want to use the

1362
01:03:52,859 --> 01:03:49,029
example of the devil how about Santa

1363
01:03:55,589 --> 01:03:52,869
Claus or what's the same thing to Santa

1364
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:55,599
Claus you can just no not me deity but

1365
01:04:02,190 --> 01:03:57,730
you know the other hand Santa Claus does

1366
01:04:04,109 --> 01:04:02,200
exist in people's minds and you know I

1367
01:04:06,750 --> 01:04:04,119
think the devil does exist in people's

1368
01:04:08,370 --> 01:04:06,760
minds you know there's a larger problem

1369
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:08,380
which is of course the problem of evil

1370
01:04:13,770 --> 01:04:11,490
and who is to blame for it and that's

1371
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:13,780
well that's a really big topic

1372
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:15,970
we get going to it or not you know we

1373
01:04:23,070 --> 01:04:20,290
prefer Edie do you have anything to to

1374
01:04:26,790 --> 01:04:23,080
maybe add to that or in particular how

1375
01:04:30,180 --> 01:04:26,800
it might relate to your understanding of

1376
01:04:33,060 --> 01:04:30,190
Pease work how much of that is because

1377
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:33,070
it also relates to his his time in

1378
01:04:38,210 --> 01:04:35,170
history and that you know I think if we

1379
01:04:41,070 --> 01:04:38,220
take Richards idea of thought-forms

1380
01:04:43,590 --> 01:04:41,080
mattering making a difference then I

1381
01:04:45,660 --> 01:04:43,600
think that also explains why we all kind

1382
01:04:47,940 --> 01:04:45,670
of move in lockstep with our times to a

1383
01:04:51,590 --> 01:04:47,950
certain extent because we are embedded

1384
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:51,600
in a culture we are embedded in a common

1385
01:04:58,230 --> 01:04:54,730
because cultural motif you know from one

1386
01:05:00,420 --> 01:04:58,240
time or another well I take a lead about

1387
01:05:03,420 --> 01:05:00,430
that devilish you not devil it's himself

1388
01:05:06,090 --> 01:05:03,430
or herself whatever he that is but about

1389
01:05:09,060 --> 01:05:06,100
a negative near-death experiences which

1390
01:05:11,490 --> 01:05:09,070
are even hellish as when you take a look

1391
01:05:15,060 --> 01:05:11,500
at the book there there there's a

1392
01:05:18,450 --> 01:05:15,070
chapter about these afterlife stages

1393
01:05:22,620 --> 01:05:18,460
which are helis in nature and PE tells

1394
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:22,630
in his own experience that there are no

1395
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:25,330
Devils in hell there are just human

1396
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:28,570
beings who have evil thoughts and habits

1397
01:05:35,460 --> 01:05:31,090
and then as Richard mentioned there are

1398
01:05:38,430 --> 01:05:35,470
some kind of of thought forms which are

1399
01:05:41,490 --> 01:05:38,440
found by people producing those evil and

1400
01:05:43,350 --> 01:05:41,500
and murderers and that kind of thoughts

1401
01:05:46,530 --> 01:05:43,360
and they have so much power that they

1402
01:05:49,260 --> 01:05:46,540
exist there for some time and if a

1403
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:49,270
person has kind of affinity harboring

1404
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:52,330
those those negative feelings and

1405
01:05:55,140 --> 01:05:54,130
thoughts throughout the life or at least

1406
01:05:58,230 --> 01:05:55,150
to some extent

1407
01:06:01,710 --> 01:05:58,240
then it might be that that this is

1408
01:06:04,230 --> 01:06:01,720
somehow attracting to these these lower

1409
01:06:06,150 --> 01:06:04,240
levels of afterlife and I find it

1410
01:06:08,850 --> 01:06:06,160
interesting that negative near-death

1411
01:06:12,450 --> 01:06:08,860
experiences they tend to reveal that

1412
01:06:15,990 --> 01:06:12,460
these stages are felt by people who who

1413
01:06:19,020 --> 01:06:16,000
go briefly to the other side so to speak

1414
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:19,030
and of course in usually they don't go

1415
01:06:23,310 --> 01:06:20,770
to hell as such that they but they are

1416
01:06:25,380 --> 01:06:23,320
allowed to see or hear something kind

1417
01:06:27,450 --> 01:06:25,390
quite near that's what I gather when I

1418
01:06:29,940 --> 01:06:27,460
read some books about that issue but

1419
01:06:31,740 --> 01:06:29,950
it seems to cohere will for instance be

1420
01:06:34,470 --> 01:06:31,750
and other Theosophical sources are

1421
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:34,480
telling about it so I'm not sure if that

1422
01:06:40,319 --> 01:06:37,210
answers anything about this issue of the

1423
01:06:42,299 --> 01:06:40,329
issue of evil or devil but it's an

1424
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:42,309
interesting point to be made that it's

1425
01:06:47,190 --> 01:06:44,650
human beings who are producing that evil

1426
01:06:49,410 --> 01:06:47,200
in those afterlife stages but it's only

1427
01:06:52,650 --> 01:06:49,420
temporary there is no such thing as per

1428
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:52,660
permanent hell I'm sorry that I I

1429
01:06:57,900 --> 01:06:54,910
dragged this disgusting back into the

1430
01:06:59,849 --> 01:06:57,910
book but that's why I'm not a bother at

1431
01:07:01,260 --> 01:06:59,859
all so I'm just reading Bart Ehrman and

1432
01:07:03,450 --> 01:07:01,270
some other sources to know what they are

1433
01:07:05,460 --> 01:07:03,460
what they are saying about the

1434
01:07:07,410 --> 01:07:05,470
scholarship of battle so I can't really

1435
01:07:10,380 --> 01:07:07,420
make any comment about that but this is

1436
01:07:13,170 --> 01:07:10,390
what I wanted to say yes no it's very

1437
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:13,180
good I kind of tend to agree with you

1438
01:07:20,549 --> 01:07:16,930
that as above so below and turning that

1439
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:20,559
around works too as below so above IB we

1440
01:07:29,309 --> 01:07:24,930
don't have to look very far to imagine

1441
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:29,319
how far evil can go in the realms beyond

1442
01:07:35,839 --> 01:07:32,650
this world right I mean we see it all

1443
01:07:37,859 --> 01:07:35,849
around us so if there's any kind of

1444
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:37,869
extension of that into these other

1445
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:38,410
realms

1446
01:07:46,710 --> 01:07:44,770
hell yes there is he he did yeah you

1447
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:46,720
know I would guess just sort of sawed

1448
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:48,250
off with a wine from the Tibetan Book of

1449
01:07:52,710 --> 01:07:51,490
the Dead no these things are to be thine

1450
01:07:55,380 --> 01:07:52,720
own thought-forms

1451
01:07:57,839 --> 01:07:55,390
you know as the deceased person is going

1452
01:08:00,120 --> 01:07:57,849
through the year both positive and

1453
01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:00,130
negative aspects of the after death

1454
01:08:06,299 --> 01:08:04,240
state awesome well perhaps we'll just

1455
01:08:09,420 --> 01:08:06,309
leave it there because we could go on

1456
01:08:12,750 --> 01:08:09,430
and on and on such a great interesting

1457
01:08:16,620 --> 01:08:12,760
conversation again our guests have been

1458
01:08:19,709 --> 01:08:16,630
dr. aunty Sivan Ian from Finland who's

1459
01:08:23,610 --> 01:08:19,719
just written this new book from death to

1460
01:08:25,169 --> 01:08:23,620
rebirth also Richard smoly who's you can

1461
01:08:27,090 --> 01:08:25,179
check out his excellent website we'll

1462
01:08:30,829 --> 01:08:27,100
have a link to it and be sure to check

1463
01:08:33,419 --> 01:08:30,839
out his latest book how God became God

1464
01:08:36,570 --> 01:08:33,429
thank you so much to both of you for

1465
01:08:38,789 --> 01:08:36,580
joining me today on skeptic oh so it's

1466
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:38,799
it's free it's an e-book and there will

1467
01:08:41,250 --> 01:08:40,449
be an audio version of it as well so

1468
01:08:42,630 --> 01:08:41,260
anybody

1469
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:42,640
read it and down with no strings

1470
01:08:46,830 --> 01:08:44,650
advanced we are not interested in

1471
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:46,840
selling anything or attaching people to

1472
01:08:51,150 --> 01:08:48,850
any any groups or anything like that

1473
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:51,160
read it if you like it and if you don't

1474
01:08:55,890 --> 01:08:54,250
that's fine as well that's great I'll

1475
01:08:58,290 --> 01:08:55,900
also include that in the introduction

1476
01:09:00,840 --> 01:08:58,300
very early on so don't worry I'll

1477
01:09:03,480 --> 01:09:00,850
mention that and it Richard I'm sorry

1478
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:03,490
tell folks some more because I just kind

1479
01:09:08,850 --> 01:09:07,090
of blew past this tell folks more about

1480
01:09:11,430 --> 01:09:08,860
they'd be very interested I'm sure in

1481
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:11,440
hearing about what you're working on

1482
01:09:16,710 --> 01:09:14,290
what's up with you where they can find

1483
01:09:17,250 --> 01:09:16,720
out more about what you're up to these

1484
01:09:19,590 --> 01:09:17,260
days

1485
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:19,600
thank you first of all I want to thank

1486
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:21,850
you very very much for your extremely

1487
01:09:26,340 --> 01:09:23,770
kind and supportive words about my work

1488
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:26,350
I'm really very grateful for that

1489
01:09:33,390 --> 01:09:29,410
well my website is w is inner

1490
01:09:37,500 --> 01:09:33,400
Christianity i-n and ER Christianity

1491
01:09:40,980 --> 01:09:37,510
calm which has a description about me my

1492
01:09:42,870 --> 01:09:40,990
books and so on I'm editor of quest

1493
01:09:48,930 --> 01:09:42,880
which is the Journal of the Theosophical

1494
01:09:51,090 --> 01:09:48,940
Society in America and that is most of

1495
01:09:53,820 --> 01:09:51,100
its contents are online at least for

1496
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:53,830
back issues so people can have access to

1497
01:09:58,560 --> 01:09:56,410
that readily as I say my you know you

1498
01:10:00,360 --> 01:09:58,570
said my latest book is how God became

1499
01:10:03,030 --> 01:10:00,370
God what scholars are really saying

1500
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:03,040
about God in the Bible and what that is

1501
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:06,730
is essentially a attempt to present you

1502
01:10:11,370 --> 01:10:09,250
know just a basic street-level guide to

1503
01:10:12,930 --> 01:10:11,380
well you've heard part of the Bible is

1504
01:10:15,420 --> 01:10:12,940
literally true part of it isn't what

1505
01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:15,430
parts are what parts are and that is you

1506
01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:18,490
know it said to digest scholarly opinion

1507
01:10:22,860 --> 01:10:20,650
to a greater or lesser extent of course

1508
01:10:25,710 --> 01:10:22,870
being the author I have my own opinions

1509
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:25,720
and certainly insert those as well but I

1510
01:10:30,900 --> 01:10:27,970
think it's a fascinating topic and you

1511
01:10:33,510 --> 01:10:30,910
know I find it continuously absorb it so

1512
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:33,520
in any case that's a little bit about me

1513
01:10:38,940 --> 01:10:36,250
I really really do appreciate your time

1514
01:10:42,030 --> 01:10:38,950
and your interest on this has been a

1515
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:42,040
delightful conversation well it

1516
01:10:46,860 --> 01:10:44,170
certainly has for me I thank both of you

1517
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:46,870
very much and it's been kind of a dream

1518
01:10:51,300 --> 01:10:48,970
come true because I'm an avid Skepta

1519
01:10:53,340 --> 01:10:51,310
listener so being part of the show is

1520
01:10:54,540 --> 01:10:53,350
just wonderful and to talk about these

1521
01:10:57,870 --> 01:10:54,550
topics and

1522
01:11:00,120 --> 01:10:57,880
thank you so much Alex and Richard I

1523
01:11:01,890 --> 01:11:00,130
really appreciate your work and your

1524
01:11:03,330 --> 01:11:01,900
contribution to this project and it was

1525
01:11:06,689 --> 01:11:03,340
so nice to talk to you both

1526
01:11:08,250 --> 01:11:06,699
Thanks thanks again for auntie and

1527
01:11:10,020 --> 01:11:08,260
Richard for joining me today on

1528
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:10,030
sceptical I guess the one question I T

1529
01:11:17,729 --> 01:11:13,690
up from this interview is what does

1530
01:11:20,010 --> 01:11:17,739
await us after we die that's a huge

1531
01:11:22,879 --> 01:11:20,020
question but it's the question of this

1532
01:11:25,950 --> 01:11:22,889
interview so let's toss it around is

1533
01:11:28,859 --> 01:11:25,960
there really a there there to even

1534
01:11:31,950 --> 01:11:28,869
explore is it all thought form created

1535
01:11:35,580 --> 01:11:31,960
by what we think it's going to be or is

1536
01:11:37,950 --> 01:11:35,590
there a reality out there that we must

1537
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:37,960
face let me know your thoughts of course

1538
01:11:42,209 --> 01:11:40,449
the place to do it is well anyway you

1539
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:42,219
want you can do it through the sceptical

1540
01:11:49,500 --> 01:11:47,170
format ske p tik Oh calm you can reach

1541
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:49,510
me on Facebook or drop me an email or

1542
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:52,650
even on Twitter I'm starting to slowly

1543
01:11:57,750 --> 01:11:55,690
eventually move over to Twitter a little

1544
01:11:58,770 --> 01:11:57,760
bit and try and dabble in that so if you

1545
01:12:01,470 --> 01:11:58,780
want to try and reach me over there

1546
01:12:03,569 --> 01:12:01,480
that's fine as well anyway you connect

1547
01:12:06,149 --> 01:12:03,579
with me we'll be fine with me I'd love

1548
01:12:06,899 --> 01:12:06,159
to connect in here which you think about

1549
01:12:09,689 --> 01:12:06,909
this show

1550
01:12:12,990 --> 01:12:09,699
well I have a number of episodes coming

1551
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:13,000
up I also am trying to do more video I

1552
01:12:16,830 --> 01:12:14,650
don't know how that's going to go it's

1553
01:12:17,970 --> 01:12:16,840
kind of a lot more work but I'm trying

1554
01:12:20,399 --> 01:12:17,980
to figure out a way to do it that's

1555
01:12:22,770 --> 01:12:20,409
manageable but I will be putting out

1556
01:12:24,629 --> 01:12:22,780
more YouTube videos related to the

1557
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:24,639
interviews that I do on skeptic oh so

1558
01:12:30,689 --> 01:12:27,130
look for that if you're interested as

1559
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:30,699
well alright enough for today until next